Douglas Jacoby / Thomas Ross Debate: "We Are Born Again Before / In Baptism"

Other debates:

The Dan Barker – Thomas Ross Debates on the Old Testament and Archaeology

Shabir Ally and Thomas Ross debate “The New Testament Picture of Jesus: Is it Accurate?”

Douglas Jacoby & Thomas Ross Debate: “We are Born Again Before / In Baptism”

Thomas Ross and Douglas Jacoby engaged in a two-part debate over the topics:

“We are Born Again Before Baptism” (Affirm: Thomas Ross; Deny: Douglas Jacoby)-part 1

“We are Born Again In Baptism” (Affirm: Douglas Jacoby; Deny: Thomas Ross)-part 2

Born Again baptism debate Douglas Jacoby Thomas Ross

on May 9, 2020 at the property of Muwonago Baptist Church in Mukwonago, Wisconsin.

Information About the Debaters:

Thomas Ross:

After entering college at the age of fifteen, Thomas Ross earned a B. A. from the University of California at Berkeley, followed by a M. A. from Fairhaven Baptist College, an M. Div. from Great Plains Baptist Divinity School, a Th. M. from Anchor Baptist Theological Seminary, and is finishing his Ph. D. with Great Plains Baptist Divinity School. He has read the New Testament in Greek multiple times, regularly reads the Hebrew Old Testament, has translated the Aramaic portions of Scripture, and also reads the Bible in Latin. His book Heaven Only for the Baptized? The Gospel of Christ vs. Pardon Through Baptism deals with the subject of this debate.

Douglas Jacoby:

According to Dr. Jacob’s website, he “has engaged in a number of debates with well-known atheists, imams, and rabbis. Douglas is also an adjunct professor of theology at Lincoln Christian University. Since the late ’90s, Douglas has led annual tours to the biblical world. With degrees from Drew, Harvard, and Duke, Douglas has written over 30 books, recorded nearly 800 podcasts, and spoken in over 100 universities, and in over 500 cities, in 126 nations around the world.”

Part 1: “We Are Born Again Before Baptism”

Watch part one of the debate on Rumble by clicking here.

Watch part one of the debate on YouTube by clicking here.

Debate Summary, part 1:

In part 1, Thomas Ross is in the affirmative and Douglas Jacoby is in the negative, discussing the proposition:

“We Are Born Again Before Baptism” (part 2 of the debate is “We are Born Again in Baptism” and Douglas Jacoby is in the affirmative and Thomas Ross in the negative).

In this first debate, Thomas Ross argued that sinners are born again, receive eternal life, and are justified (declared righteous in the sight of God) before baptism at the moment that they repent and believe; salvation is by faith alone. He said:

1.) Scripture teaches all true believers are justified / spiritually alive.
2.) Scripture teaches that before being baptized, one must be a true believer.
3.) Therefore Scripture teaches that one is justified / spiritually alive before baptism.

He presented over fifty passages of Scripture such as: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. . . . He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” (John 3:16-18). Dr. Ross argued that when God employs words like “shall,” “will,” “every one,” “whosoever,” one who has believed on Christ has made at that moment the complete human response required to enter into eternal life. Baptism, therefore, cannot also be necessary for eternal life.

Ross argued that saving faith is not simply knowing facts. In the words of the 2nd London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689: “The principal acts of saving faith, have immediate relation to Christ, accepting, receiving, and resting upon him alone, for justification, sanctification, and eternal life.” (Chapter 14, “Of Saving Faith.”)

Ross pointed out that statements such as the following were not in the Bible:

NOTJOHN 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and is baptized in the name of him that sent me (?), hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

He quoted Thomas Campbell, a founder of the COC (“church of Campbell” if not the true church / if Thomas Ross is correct, “Church of Christ” if Douglas Jacoby is correct and his denomination is the true church) “Where the Bible speaks; we speak; where the Bible is silent, we are silent.” Thomas Ross argued that the Bible never says that the unbaptized will be damned, so we should be silent about that taking place. He argued that there is only one “everlasting gospel” (Revelation 14:6) and that in the Old Testament before the giving of the Law of Moses, underneath the Mosaic covenant, in Christ’s ministry in the Gospels, in the book of Acts and all subsequent revelation, and thus in all of Scripture the lost were always justified at the moment of faith, quoting verses such as:

“And [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness” (Genesis 15:6)

“Kiss the Son [repent], lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.” (Psalm 2:12).

He argued that the gospel of the Old Testament, salvation to all who trust in God’s Son (Psalm 2:12), is the gospel of the New Testament (Galatians 3:8, Hebrews 4:2).

He also pointed out that many New Testament examples indicate that “thy faith hath saved thee” (Luke 7:50), that Gentiles are saved in Acts before baptism (Acts 10), the Apostle Paul was justified before baptism, that the Bible specifically says “whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God” (1 John 5:1), and contrasted baptism with the gospel: “Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel” (1 Corinthians 1:17). He argued that since salvation is not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9) and no law has ever been given that can give life (Galatians 3:21), the good work of baptism (Matthew 3:15) cannot save from sin.

Dr. Douglas Jacoby responded to Thomas Ross’s arguments and mainly made positive arguments for his position in part 2 of this debate (please also see that video). In part 1, Jacoby also argued that John 3:5; Titus 3:5; & Romans 6:3-4 teach baptism is the point of the new birth. He argued that baptism was considered the point of salvation to everyone in the early Christian centuries, quoting Justin Martyr, Theophilus of Antioch, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Novatian, Origen & Cyprian. He pointed out that he agreed with Thomas Ross that saying the “sinner’s prayer” was not the way to be born again. Jacoby argued that baptism was not a good work and that passages condemning works salvation only spoke of Moses’s Law.

Part 2: “We Are Born Again In Baptism”

Watch part two of the debate on Rumble by clicking here.

Watch part two of the debate on YouTube by clicking here.

Debate Summary, part 2:

In part 2, Douglas Jacoby affirmed and Thomas Ross denied the proposition:

“We Are Born Again In Baptism” (part 1 of the debate is “We are Born Again Before Baptism”).

In this second debate, Douglas Jacoby argued baptism is essential, and that the following verses teach that baptism is the moment of the new birth:

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” (Mark 16:16)

“Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38)

“And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” (Acts 22:16)

“[E]ight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 3:20-21)

Dr. Jacoby said salvation is for those “in Christ” (en Christo) while baptism is “into Christ” (eis Christon, Romans 6:3; Galatians 3:27); one is “in Christ” through baptism “into Christ.” He also referenced John 3:5; Colossians 2:12 & Titus 3:5. He said Jesus Christ only taught a little bit about baptism, while the book of Acts explains the way of salvation for the church age. He claimed that the Epistle of Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas, Commodianus, Archelaus, the creed of the Council of Nicaea, and other patristics / church fathers taught salvation through baptism.

Thomas Ross responded with evidence in his book Heaven Only for the Baptized? The Gospel of Christ vs. Pardon through Baptism. Ross agreed that baptism is essential because everything in the Bible is essential, but denied it is a prerequisite to the new birth. He thought the claim the Savior only taught a little about salvation was strange.

Ross said that while Scripture says those who do not repent (Luke 13:3) and believe (John 3:18) are lost, neither Mark 16:16 nor any other text of the Bible states that the unbaptized are lost. Baptism is evidence of justification in Mark 16:16.

In Acts 2:38, “for” (eis) means “on account of” because the audience of Acts 2 would have had the message of John the Baptist, “I indeed baptize you with water unto [eis] repentance” (Matthew 3:11) in their minds, and other texts in the NT and outside the Bible show eis can mean “on account of.” Josephus and Eusebius likewise show that John’s baptism did not forgive sin. The KJV translates eis forty-eight different ways but never renders the preposition as “in order to” in any of its 1,767 appearances. Baptism is not “in order to” the remission of sin.

In Acts 22:16, the Greek middle voice of “wash” indicates that baptism figuratively or representatively washes away sin (cf. Job 9:30), while Christ’s blood actually washes away sin (Revelation 1:5).

1 Peter 3:21 specifically says baptism is a good conscience’s “answer” and does not put away spiritual filthiness, so one is forgiven before baptism. The Greek word for “saved” (diasodzo) in 1 Peter 3:20 is never used for spiritual salvation from hell in the New Testament, nor are the words for “saved” in 1 Peter 3:20-21 used together of spiritual salvation in the LXX. None of these verses meet the burden of proof for baptism as the moment of the new birth.

Dr. Ross pointed out that 279 NT verses have “in Christ” and related phrases, and none of them say that baptism is how one is “in Christ.” He asked why if baptism + eis / “into” proves one is “in Christ” only after baptism, why speak + eis (Ephesians 5:32) or sin + eis (1 Corinthians 8:12) do not prove that one actually is “in Christ” by speaking or by sinning.

Titus 3:5 actually refutes, not supports, baptism in order to obtain the new birth.

Thomas Ross pointed out that huge numbers of verses (examined in part 1 of this debate) teach eternal life is received at the moment of faith, while only a tiny number of texts, c. 0.019% of the Bible, even give the appearance of supporting baptism as the moment of forgiveness–core teachings of the Word of God from monotheism to the Deity and resurrection of Jesus Christ do not rest on such slender evidence.

Ross cited Clement of Rome, Polycarp, Marius Victorinus, Tertullian, the Novatians, Basil of Caesarea, and Augustine of Hippo to prove that baptism was not universally considered necessary for salvation in early church history. Alexander Campbell, founder of Dr. Jacoby’s “Church of Christ” denomination, knew that “Baptism as viewed and practised by the Baptists, had its advocates in every century up to the Christian era … from the apostolic age, to the present time.”

Post-Debate Questions and Answers!

There were a number of questions from the audience that the speakers did not have time to address during the recorded debate. They were gracious enough to answer these questions on the What is Truth? blog afterwards–there is some valuable information and interaction in the posts below: