Tommy McMurtry / Ross: Salvation, Sinners Prayer, Hell Debate 2/2

Tommy McMurtry / Thomas Ross Discussion Part 2:

Sinner’s Prayer, Did Christ Have to Suffer in Hell? (No!) & the Great Commission

Watch part 1 of the Tommy McMurtry & Thomas Ross Salvation Debate here

On January 1, 2025, Tommy McMurtry and Thomas Ross held a discussion or a debate in which seven questions were examined:

1.) Does the Old Testament teach that the lost must turn from their sins (repent) to be saved? (Ross: “Yes!” McMurtry: “No!”)
2.) Does the New Testament teach that the lost must turn from their sins (repent) to be saved? (Ross: “Yes!” McMurtry: “No!”)
3.) Does one become a disciple at the moment of the new birth, or at some point afterwards? (Ross: “All become disciples at the moment of regeneration.” McMurtry: “Some become disciples, but only after regeneration.”)
4.) How does regeneration change someone? (Ross: “The whole person is changed.” McMurtry: “The spirit becomes sinless.”)
5.) Can people be born again without calling on the Lord / saying the “sinner’s prayer”? (Ross: “Yes!” McMurtry: [qualified] “No!”)
6.) Did Christ suffer in hell after His death on the cross? (Ross: “No!” McMurtry: “Yes!”)
7.) How do our beliefs on the issues above impact how we seek to fulfill the Great Commission? (Both Ross and McMurtry agree that there are many serious implications.)

Tommy McMurtry represents the sort of churches that classify themselves as independent, fundamental Baptists more associated doctrinally with what is called the “new IFB” on gospel-related matters. The churches that believe like Pastor McMurtry stand in continuity with Jack Hyles and the New IFB movement spearheaded by Steven Anderson. Mr. McMurtry repudiates the moral failures and man-centeredness of Steven Anderson and Jack Hyles (and Pastor McMurtry should be commended for this.) However, McMurtry states: “when it came to the doctrines associated with new IFB … I am new IFB … I align with … Pastor Anderson … on so many things … I want to see the good things that he has stood for continue … the good things that he has taught … he’s given the truth about repentance … Jack Hyles … typically … the best church … [in] a city …. is probably going to be a Hyles Anderson graduate … Hyles stood for a lot of very good things.” (What has happened to the NIFB? Tommy McMurtry & Matt Furse | Episode 19, ReDiscover Studios, 10/29/2024, 48, 94-104 min). Thus, Tommy McMurtry has new IFB beliefs.

Thomas Ross stands for the historic Baptist faith as contained in Scripture, classic Baptist confessions, and as defended by independent Baptist churches unaffiliated with Jack Hyles and Steven Anderson, what might be called the “old IFB.” Ross argued that Jack Hyles introduced corruption into Baptist churches that was made even worse by Steven Anderson and the “new IFB”; fundamental Baptist churches should return to the theological position on the gospel and evangelism that they believed and practiced before they suffered the detrimental influence of Hyles and Anderson.

Tommy McMurtry pastors the Liberty Baptist Church of Rock Falls, IL. Thomas Ross is helping plant the Grace and Truth Baptist Church in San Francisco, CA under the authority of Victory Baptist Church of Oshkosh, WI, while also helping churches with college and seminary classes under the authority of Victory Baptist Church. The discussion took place in the auditorium of the Mukwonago Baptist Church in Mukwonago, WI.

In relation to the specific matters of their debate, Mr. McMurtry denies that the lost must turn from their sins (repent) to be saved in either the Old or the New Testament; only the sin of unbelief must be repented of. Thomas Ross believes that Christians today should warn the lost: “Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions” (Ezekiel 18:30), for they will be damned unless they repent of their sinful deeds (Revelation 2:22).

McMurtry defended the position that discipleship is a status some believers choose to enter into after they are born again. Ross argued that all true believers are disciples. Someone who does not deny himself and take up the cross, with the result of following Christ, will lose his soul in hell (Mark 8:34-36).

McMurtry argued that in regeneration a Christian receives a sinless spirit. According to McMurtry, the Christian’s body or flesh is unchanged, and his soul can move between the sinless spirit and the unchanged body. Ross argued that regeneration or the new birth affects the entire person-the “man,” not 1/3 of the man, is born again (John 3:3). Sin’s dominion is shattered in the entire human person, but no portion of the regenerate man is unaffected by sin.

McMurtry contends that people always say the sinner’s prayer when they are born again, although, McMurtry affirms, some may say it silently. Ross argues that nobody ever has been or will be justified because he has said the sinner’s prayer-justification is by faith alone, and the sinner’s prayer is a 20th century corruption of older Biblical and Baptist evangelism not found in the Old or New Testaments, and not, specifically, taught in Revelation 3:20 or Romans 10:9-13. Calling on the Lord is a mark of someone who is already born again. After people repent, they begin a life of calling on the Lord.

McMurtry argued that Jesus Christ suffered in hell after He died. Ross argued that Baptists have historically viewed such an affirmation as blasphemy and heresy. The immaterial portion of the human nature of Jesus Christ, after the Lord completed His suffering on the cross, went immediately into the presence of His Father, while His body was in the grave for three days.

McMurtry evangelizes in a manner comparable to both a Hyles-Anderson College graduate and those affiliated with the New IFB of Steven Anderson. Thomas Ross evangelizes the way Baptists did from the Reformation era through the mid-twentieth century and, he contends, the way the first-century Christians and Christians in the ancient and medieval period evangelized.

Download Thomas Ross’ Presentation Notes:

Download the PowerPoint slides used by Thomas Ross by clicking here.

Notes for Tommy McMurtry & Thomas Ross

Discussion / Debate, part 5

5.) Can people be born again without calling on the Lord / saying the “sinner’s prayer”?

McMurtry speaking first; Ross speaking second

Ross answers “Yes!” McMurtry answers this question “No!”

Thanks again, Pastor McMurtry, for taking the time to make your case in the previous parts of our discussion. In part five, we are discussing this question: “Can people be born again without calling on the Lord / saying the ‘sinner’s prayer’?” The answer: “Yes!” The Bible and historic Baptist doctrine agree: nobody ever has been, nor will be, justified because he said the sinner’s prayer—justification is by repentant faith alone, not by faith plus prayer, or faith channeled through prayer, or anything of the kind.

The sinner’s prayer is not a means of grace, a sacrament through which one gets saving faith.

The London Baptist Confession of 1689, Article 27, indicates that “saints … call upon the name of the Lord Jesus.”^[1] No Baptist confession ever states that saving faith requires saying the sinner’s prayer or places saving faith in conjunction with calling on the Lord and asking to be saved, or asking Jesus to come into one’s heart. My study of hundreds of pages of Baptist confessions did not turn up even one example of the “sinner’s prayer.” Why?

Dr. Paul Chitwood, in his 2001 Ph. D. dissertation for the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary entitled The Sinner’s Prayer: An Historical and Theological Analysis, notes:

Although the Sinner’s Prayer is widely used and enormously popular today, no variation of it is found in the Bible. … In addition to the Sinner’s Prayer not occurring in the Bible, it is also absent from the pages of church history. We fail to see it even through the rise of revivalism and mass evangelism [in] the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. … Leading lost persons in praying the Sinner’s Prayer is a relatively new method in evangelism … [with] no occurrence before the twentieth century. The routine use of a model prayer for salvation in any form is also absent before the twentieth century. … [Likewise,] the concept of bringing or inviting “Jesus into your heart” is one that does not occur readily before the turn of the twentieth century. … The Sinner’s Prayer was not popularized until late [in] the twentieth century, possibly as late as the 1940s or even the early 1950s. … The Sinner’s Prayer must not be understood as the means by which a person is saved.[2]

The “sinner’s prayer” is absent from all Baptist confessions because it did not exist as a method of evangelism until a handful of decades ago. It did not exist for 95% of church history. Nor did anyone in the Old Testament repeat the “sinner’s prayer” or ask the Messiah or a sacrificial animal that represented the Messiah to come into his heart. Nor did Jesus Christ, John the Baptist, or the Apostles ever command anyone to repeat the sinner’s prayer. Thus, the position of Pastor McMurtry on the necessity of the sinner’s prayer is incorrect.

The sinner’s prayer is based on a misinterpretation of two passages of Scripture—Revelation 3:20 and Romans 10:9-13. First, the “sinner’s prayer” is not in Revelation 3:20:

Revelation 3:20 is not about asking Jesus to come into your heart.[3] First, the “door” in the verse is not the “door” to your heart, but the door to the church at Laodicea. No verse in Scripture ever states or even implies that Jesus is knocking on the door of your heart and if you ask Him into your heart you will be justified.

Secondly, the verb in Revelation 3:20 is εἰσελεύσομαι, meaning “come in.” It is followed by the preposition πρός, “to.” Christ says that if the church opens the door, He will come in and be face to face with them.

He says not a syllable about penetrating inside of their hearts. Every time this Greek verb “come in” is associated with the preposition “to,” the idea is to come in and to be face-to-face with someone.[4] It never refers to penetrating inside of anything. In fact, the idea that Revelation 3:20 teaches that Christ will penetrate inside of the heart of the one who opens his “heart’s door” is not only based on a misinterpretation of the Greek text, but even of the English KJV.

The English Bible does not say that Christ will come “into” anyone. It says Christ will “come in,” “to” the people in Laodicea.

Utilizing Revelation 3:20 for the “sinner’s prayer” requires one to twist and torture the passage in a serious way. I hope that Pastor McMurtry does not do this.

What about Romans 10:9-13? Does that passage teach Pastor McMurtry’s position on the necessity of the sinner’s prayer?

Considered in context, the passage has nothing to do with the lost repeating the “sinner’s prayer” to be justified.[5] First, this passage cannot contradict the many other passages of Scripture, including Romans 10:4 and Romans 10:11, and many other texts in the book of Romans itself, that affirm justification by faith alone.

Romans 10:9-13 cannot add the good work of repeating the “sinner’s prayer” in order to obtain justification.

Second, to confess with the mouth the Lord Jesus in Romans 10:9-10 is not about the sinner’s prayer, contrary to Tommy McMurtry’s position.

Common verbs for prayer are not employed in Romans 10:9-10; instead the verb confess is employed. In 23 of the 24 instances of this verb in the New Testament it is not even about prayer at all, and the final instance is not about a lost person praying to be born again. Confessing the Lord Jesus refers to those already justified confessing Christ with the mouth as part of their progressive sanctification. With the heart you must first believe; when you do, Christ’s righteousness is imputed to you, and you are justified. Then, as someone who is already born again, you confess Jesus with your mouth when you are baptized, when you take a stand for Him in this wicked world, when you evangelize and make disciples. Confessing Jesus with your mouth in Romans 10:9-10 means the same thing as Matthew 10:32-33, which employs the same verb “confess.”

The passages are about confessing Christ before men.[6]

Furthermore, Romans 10:9-10 mentions confessing with your mouth. None of the 79 uses of the word “mouth” in the New Testament refer to some sort of inward, merely symbolic “mouth.” Were this verse really about the lost repeating the “sinner’s prayer,” nobody who was mute or who did not pray out loud, moving his lips, would be justified. If you prayed in your heart you would still be on your way to hell. Aren’t you glad that this verse is actually about those who are already born again confessing Jesus with their actual mouths before men?

In addition, the word “saved” does not always refer to justification.[7] Contrary to McMurtry, there is no reason to assume that is the referent here.

For example, in Romans 5:8-9 we are “NOW justified,” but in that passage not yet saved—“we SHALL BE saved,” future tense. In fact, Paul never uses the future tense of the verb “saved” for justification, but almost always uses it for future salvation in the Kingdom. That is its use in Romans 5:8-9; Romans 10:9-10, and Romans 10:13. One believes from the heart and is immediately justified. As a result of being born again, he receives a new nature that loves Christ, and so wants to confess him with the mouth.

If the “confession” actually is post-justification but pre-glorification, why is it mentioned before the belief in 10:9? The reason is because Paul is alluding to Deuteronomy 30:11-14 in Romans 10:5-8. In Deuteronomy, the mouth is mentioned before the heart. That is why confessing with the mouth is mentioned first in Romans 10:9. The real order in time is then explained in Romans 10:10—first one believes in the heart and is justified, and then as part of his Christian life he characteristically confesses Christ before men with his mouth. If someone has truly believed, he will not be ashamed to confess Christ, and he will also not be ashamed in the future day of judgment. As Romans 10:11, says, “Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.”

So Romans 10:9-11 is not about the lost repeating the “sinner’s prayer” to be justified. In fact, it is not about prayer at all. It is about Christians confessing Christ before men with their literal mouths. The position of Pastor McMurtry position receives no support from Romans 10:9-11.

What about Romans 10:13? Just like Romans 10:9-10, Romans 10:13 is not about the lost repeating the “sinner’s prayer.” But even if it were, it would not prove that someone is damned unless he says the prayer, so the claim of Mr. McMurtry is not established.

There are texts that say that if you do not repent you will perish.[8] There are texts that say that if you do not believe, you will perish.

There are no texts that state that you will perish if you do not repeat the sinner’s prayer.

If you believe you will be saved, and so if you believe and are baptized, or believe and repeat the sinner’s prayer, or believe and are faithful to Sunday School, you will also be saved.[9]

The fact that if you believe and repeat the sinner’s prayer you will be born again no more proves that you are lost unless you repeat the sinner’s prayer than Mark 16:16 proves that you are not born again unless you are baptized.

Even if Romans 10:13 were about the “sinner’s prayer,” it would not prove that you will be damned unless you say the prayer.

However, Romans 10:13 is not about repeating the sinner’s prayer.

First, Romans 10:14 explicitly teaches that nobody can call on Christ until he has already believed. One exercises saving faith before beginning to call on the Lord—Romans 10:13 refers to the prayers of those who are already Christians. Romans 10:14 cannot refer to some sort of belief in Christ that fell short of saving faith but is “activated” when a sinner prays, because:

1.) Every time the verb believe (Gk. pisteuo) appears in the immediate context of 10:13, it refers to saving faith (Romans 9:33; 10:4, 9, 10, 11, 16).

2.) Pisteuo is never used of the kind of non-saving, merely intellectual acknowledgment of facts, a “belief,” that a lost man can have in Christ (James 2:19) in any of the 21 instances of the verb believe in Romans.

3.) Pisteuo is never used for the non-saving “faith” in Christ a lost man can have anywhere in the 56 instances of the verb in the Pauline epistles (Romans 1:16; 3:2, 22; 4:3, 5, 11, 17-18, 24; 6:8; 9:33; 10:4, 9-11, 14, 16; 13:11; 14:2; 15:13; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 3:5; 9:17; 11:18; 13:7; 14:22; 15:2, 11; 2 Corinthians 4:13; Galatians 2:7, 16; 3:6, 22; Ephesians 1:13, 19; Philippians 1:29; 1 Thessalonians 1:7; 2:4, 10, 13; 4:14; 2 Thessalonians 1:10; 2:11-12; 1 Timothy 1:11, 16; 3:16; 2 Timothy 1:12; Titus 1:3; 3:8; Hebrews 4:3; 11:6).

4.) Therefore, Romans 10:14 must of necessity refer to saving faith, which precedes the calling of Romans 10:13 in time.

Furthermore, the Greek of Romans 10:12 indicates that the type of prayer under discussion is regular, ongoing prayer, not the one-time repetition of the “sinner’s prayer” by a lost person.[10] Nor is “calling on the Lord” specifically asking to be justified; it is any kind of prayer. If you ask God to help you before taking a test in school, you are calling on the Lord. Romans 10:13 teaches that Christians are people of prayer, those who regularly call on Christ.

Those who have received new hearts and so love to pray to Christ will receive future salvation. This is the overwhelming usage of the Greek verb “call upon” in the New Testament—Christians are people who regularly call on the Lord.[11]

This also fits with the regular Old Testament pattern where “calling on Jehovah” is characteristic of the true people of God.

Furthermore, just like in Romans 10:9-10, in Romans 10:13 “saved” does not refer to the moment of the new birth at all, but to future, eschatological salvation, to entering God’s kingdom.

Paul quotes Joel 2:32 in Romans 10:13, and he does not take the Old Testament verse out of context.[12]

Joel 2:32 refers to born again Tribulation Jews praying for Christ to return and defeat the armies of the Antichrist.[13] It is not about lost people repeating the sinner’s prayer in order to be justified. The “deliverance/salvation” that they are praying for is physical deliverance from the armies of the Antichrist. Neither the Hebrew verb “delivered” nor the noun “deliverance” ever refer even one time to justification.

These born-again Tribulation Jews are not asking Jesus into their hearts, but are praying: “[T]hither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD” (Joel 3:11). They are praying for Christ’s second coming with His mighty angels and for deliverance from the armies of the Antichrist. They are praying Matthew 6:10: “thy kingdom come.” Paul does not take Joel 2:32 out of context in Romans 10:13 and twist the Old Testament passage into a verse about justification.

In conclusion—can people be born again without calling on the Lord / saying the “sinner’s prayer”? Yes! Why? Because saying the “sinner’s prayer” never has and never will be the means for anyone being born again. Justification is by repentant faith alone, not by faith plus prayer. The “sinner’s prayer” did not even exist for 95% of church history. It is not found in any Baptist or evangelical Protestant confession of faith. It was never used in the Old Testament, nor used by Christ, nor used by the Apostles. It is not found in Revelation 3:20, or in Romans 10:9-10, or in Romans 10:13. The “sinner’s prayer” confuses people, keeps vast numbers of people from truly coming to saving faith in Christ, and robs many who have come to Christ from Biblical assurance of salvation. It should be definitively discarded—the sooner the better.

^[1] W. J. McGlothlin, Baptist Confessions of Faith (Philadelphia: American Baptist Publication Society, 1911), 269.

[2] Paul H. Chitwood, The Sinner’s Prayer: An Historical and Theological Analysis, Paul H. Chitwood. Ph. D. Diss., Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, 2001, pgs. pgs. 3-4, 43-44, 69, 125. Elec. acc. https://faithsaves.net/the-sinners-prayer/.

[3] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Revelation 3:20)

“Door” = the door to the church, not the “heart’s door.”

“Come in to him” ¹ “Come into him”

εἰσελεύσομαι πρὸς αὐτόν

eiseleusomai pros auton

[4] Eiserchomai (“come in”) + Pros (“to”) in the New Testament

καὶ εἰσελθοῦσα εὐθέως μετὰ σπουδῆς πρὸς τὸν βασιλέα, ᾐτήσατο, λέγουσα, Θέλω ἵνα μοι δῷς ἐξ αὐτῆς ἐπὶ πίνακι τὴν κεφαλὴν Ἰωάννου τοῦ βαπτιστοῦ.

And she came in straightway with haste unto the king, and asked, saying, I will that thou give me by and by in a charger the head of John the Baptist. (Mark 6:25)

ἦλθεν Ἰωσὴφ ὁ ἀπὸ Ἀριμαθαίας, εὐσχήμων βουλευτής, ὃς καὶ αὐτὸς ἦν προσδεχόμενος τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ Θεοῦ· τολμήσας εἰσῆλθε πρὸς Πιλάτον, καὶ ᾐτήσατο τὸ σῶμα τοῦ Ἰησοῦ.

Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus. (Mark 15:43)

καὶ εἰσελθὼν ὁ ἄγγελος πρὸς αὐτὴν εἶπε, Χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη· ὁ Κύριος μετὰ σοῦ, εὐλογημένη σὺ ἐν γυναιξίν.

And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (Luke 1:28)

εἶδεν ἐν ὁράματι φανερῶς, ὡσεὶ ὥραν ἐννάτην τῆς ἡμέρας, ἄγγελον τοῦ Θεοῦ εἰσελθόντα πρὸς αὐτόν, καὶ εἰπόντα αὐτῷ, Κορνήλιε.

He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. (Acts 10:3)

λέγοντες ὅτι Πρὸς ἄνδρας ἀκροβυστίαν ἔχοντας εἰσῆλθες, καὶ συνέφαγες αὐτοῖς.

Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them. (Acts 11:3)

κατὰ δὲ τὸ εἰωθὸς τῷ Παύλῳ εἰσῆλθε πρὸς αὐτούς, καὶ ἐπὶ σάββατα τρία διελέγετο αὐτοῖς ἀπὸ τῶν γραφῶν,

And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, (Acts 17:2)

ἐγένετο δὲ τὸν πατέρα τοῦ Ποπλίου πυρετοῖς καὶ δυσεντερίᾳ συνεχόμενον κατακεῖσθαι· πρὸς ὃν ὁ Παῦλος εἰσελθών, καὶ προσευξάμενος, ἐπιθεὶς τὰς χεῖρας αὐτῷ, ἰάσατο αὐτόν.

And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him. (Acts 28:8)

ἰδού, ἕστηκα ἐπὶ τὴν θύραν καὶ κρούω· ἐάν τις ἀκούσῃ τῆς φωνῆς μου, καὶ ἀνοίξῃ τὴν θύραν, εἰσελεύσομαι πρὸς αὐτόν, καὶ δειπνήσω μετ’ αὐτοῦ, καὶ αὐτὸς μετ’ ἐμοῦ.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Revelation 3:20)

[5] 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above🙂 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

[6] 32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 10:32-33)

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:9-10)

[7] 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Paul never uses the future tense of the verb “saved” for justification, but almost always uses it for future salvation in the Kingdom: Romans 5:9-10; 9:27; 10:9, 13; 11:14, 26; 1 Corinthians 3:15; 7:16; 1 Timothy 2:15; 4:16; 2 Timothy 4:18.

[8] If you do not repent you will perish:

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3)

If you do not believe you will perish:

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

If you do not repeat the sinner’s prayer, you will perish:

NOWHERE

[9] Since if you believe you will be born again, if you believe and are baptized you will also be born again:

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:16)

Since if you believe you will be born again, if you believe and repeat the sinner’s prayer you will also be born again.

Since if you believe you will be born again, if you believe and confess Jesus with your mouth you will also be born again.

But the fact that if you believe and repeat the sinner’s prayer you will be born again no more proves that you are lost unless you repeat the sinner’s prayer than Mark 16:16 proves that you are not born again unless you are baptized.

Even if Romans 10:13 were about the “sinner’s prayer,” it would not prove that you will be damned unless you say the prayer.

[10] 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call [Greek pantas tous epikaloumenous, ongoing, repeated action] upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon [Greek hos an epikalesētai, indefinite relative clause, either summary or gnomic action] the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

[11] Christians Call on the Lord:

And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. (Acts 9:14)

But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests? (Acts 9:21)

Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: (1 Corinthians 1:2)

Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. (2 Timothy 2:22)

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: (1 Peter 1:17)

[12] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Romans 10:13) quotes:

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. (Joel 2:32)

[13] In Joel 2:32:

Those calling are Tribulation Jews who are already justified.

“Delivered/saved” is not justification. The Hebrew verb (מָלַט, Niphal) never refers to justification, and is overwhelmingly used for physical deliverance (63x: Gen. 19:17, 19-20, 22; Judg. 3:26, 29; 1 Sam. 19:10, 12, 17-18; 20:29; 22:1, 20; 23:13; 27:1; 30:17; 2 Sam. 1:3; 4:6; 1 Kings 18:40; 19:17; 20:20; 2 Kings 10:24; 19:37; Is. 20:6; 37:38; 49:24-25; Jer. 32:4; 34:3; 38:18, 23; 41:15; 46:6; 48:8, 19; Ezek. 17:15, 18; Joel 3:5; Amos 9:1; Zech. 2:11; Mal. 3:15; Psa. 22:6; 124:7; Job 1:15-17, 19; 22:30; Prov. 11:21; 19:5; 28:26; Eccl. 7:26; Esth. 4:13; Dan. 11:41; 12:1; 2 Chr. 16:7).

“Deliverance” (פְּלֵיטָה) is never spiritual salvation—all 28x are physical deliverance in the OT (Gen. 32:9; 45:7; Ex. 10:5; Judg. 21:17; 2 Sam. 15:14; 2 Kings 19:30-31; Is. 4:2; 10:20; 15:9; 37:31-32; Jer. 25:35; 50:29; Ezek. 14:22; Joel 2:3; 3:5; Obad. 1:17; Dan. 11:42; Ezra 9:8, 13-15; Neh. 1:2; 1 Chr. 4:43; 2 Chr. 12:7; 20:24; 30:6).

They are not asking Jesus into their hearts, but are praying: “[T]hither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD” (Joel 3:11). They are praying for Christ’s second coming with His mighty angels and for deliverance from the armies of the Antichrist (cf. “thy kingdom come,” Matthew 6:11)

Joel 2:32 is about born again Jews in the Tribulation praying for Christ to return and defeat the armies of the Antichrist so they will escape from death. It is not about lost people repeating the sinner’s prayer in order to be justified.

Notes for Tommy McMurtry & Thomas Ross

Discussion / Debate, part 6

6.) Did Christ suffer in hell after His death on the cross?

Ross speaking first; McMurtry speaking second

McMurtry answers this question “Yes!” Ross answers “No!”

As we are drawing to the close of this discussion, I would like to thank Pastor McMurtry again for taking the time to engage in this discussion. We are now ready to discuss the question Did Christ suffer in hell after His death on the cross? The answer of Scripture, and of historic Baptist doctrine, is an unambiguous, unequivocal NO!

For example, the General Baptist Orthodox Creed of 1678, Article 28, declares:[1]

The three creeds, viz. Nicene Creed, Athanasius’s Creed, and the Apostles Creed, as they are commonly called, ought throughly to be received, and believed. For we believe, they may be proved, by most undoubted authority of holy scripture, and are necessary to be understood of all Christians … these creeds containing all things in a brief manner, that are necessary to be known, fundamentally, in order to our salvation; … upon the article in the Apostles’ Creed, he descended into hell, they [note]: Not that he, to wit, Christ, went into the place of the damned, but that he went absolutely into the state of the dead.^[2]

What is the Orthodox Creed talking about? Why does no Baptist Confession of faith, anywhere, affirm that the Lord Jesus was tormented in hell after His death? Why do historic Baptists view such an affirmation as blasphemy and heresy (without questioning the sincerity of Pastor McMurtry)?

The version of the Apostles’ Creed recited by the Roman Catholic religion contains the clause “he descended into hell” in English:[3]

I believe in God the Father Almighty; Maker of heaven and earth.

And in Jesus Christ his only begotten Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose from the dead; he ascended into heaven; and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy Catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the flesh; and the life everlasting. Amen.^[4]

However, this confession of a “decent into hell” does not appear before the middle of the fourth century in the Fourth Formula of Sirmium in AD 359 and in other pro-Arian creeds, confessions made by people who denied the Deity of Christ.[5] It “never established itself in the official creeds of the East,” and only began to be accepted in the West in the 6^th century A. D.^[6] The Received Text of the Apostles’ Creed—affirming a Catholic church and the descent into hell, first clearly appears in the 8^th century AD.^[7] When this clause finally did appear, it was interpreted originally as a reference to Christ’s burial, not to Christ going to the place where the lost are tormented. Thus, Rufinus, the first writer to comment on the Creed, noted: “In the creed of the Roman church, we should notice, the words DESCENDED TO HELL are not added, nor for that matter does the clause feature in the Eastern churches. Its meaning, however, appears to be precisely the same as that contained in the affirmation BURIED.”^[8]

The Baptists and the earliest Christians who denied that Christ was tormented in hell are 100% correct—that is the teaching of Scripture. The idea that Christ was tortured in hell after His death on the cross is correctly denied in every Baptist confession that discusses the idea and affirmed by no historic Baptist creed, anywhere. The position of Pastor McMurtry is neither Biblical nor Baptist. Why?

When Christ was dying on the cross, He made several crucial statements:[9]

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luke 23:43).

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. (Luke 23:46)

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. (John 19:30)

According to Luke 23:43, the Lord Jesus was not tormented in hell after he died; neither was the thief. They were both in Paradise. This verse is as clear as you can get! According to Luke 23:46, the spiritual part of Christ’s humanity went to the Father; Christ committed His spirit to Him. The Father did not reject Christ’s human spirit when His Son offered it to Him, and then send Christ’s human spirit to hell.[10] Christ’s body was in the grave for three days, and His human spirit was immediately with the Father in Paradise, with the thief’s human spirit. Furthermore, according to John 19:30, on the cross Christ completed the suffering necessary for redemption. No further suffering was required. Christ “hath once suffered for sins” when “put to death in the flesh” on the cross (1 Pet 3:18)-not afterwards when (allegedly) in torment in hell! These passages prove that the Lord Jesus was not tormented in hell after He died.

Before our discussion today, I wrote Pastor McMurtry, asking him about this verse. I also asked him about it in a phone conversation. He answered by email: “As far as what Jesus said in Luke 23:43 I think Jesus was just speaking on behalf of the Trinity as He often did.” Over the phone he explained further that, if I understood him correctly, he thinks that because the thief was with the Father therefore Christ could say that the thief was with “me.” But Luke 23:43 does not say that Christ was with the Father. The Lord Jesus said the thief would be with ME. The thief was in the same place as the human nature of the Son of God—both the thief and the immaterial part of Christ’s human nature were in Paradise. They were not being tormented in hell, in the same place as the thief that did not repent! Christ did not say “both of you thieves, the one that repented and the one that did not, will be tormented in hell, and I will be, too.” No, one thief was in Paradise with the immaterial part of Christ’s human nature, and the other thief was in hell—where Christ’s human nature was NOT.

If I understood him correctly, Pastor McMurtry made the shocking statement that Christ’s human spirit was in Paradise, but His human soul was in hell. Of course, that does not work unless Scripture teaches trichotomy, not dichotomy. But even with trichotomy it does not work. A true human nature cannot have the immaterial portion of its being separated like that. A true human nature cannot have its spirit in one place and its soul in another place—a true human nature certainly cannot have its spirit enjoying the bliss of heaven while its soul is tormented in hell! Pastor McMurtry’s affirmation here denies the true humanity of Christ (unintentionally, I am sure) in order to maintain his idea that Christ was tormented in hell after His death.

I believe that the only reason Pastor McMurtry believes that Christ was tormented in hell after his death is because he (erroneously) thinks it is required by his King James Only position and by Acts 2, quoting Psalm 16.[11]

For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Psalm 16:10)

27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. … 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. (Acts 2:27, 31)

33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Acts 13:33-35)

However, note that the parallel passage to Acts 2 in Acts 13 equates “his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption” with “raised him up FROM THE DEAD, now no more to return to corruption.” The clause about Christ’s soul being in “hell” simply means that His soul was in the state of the dead. Christ’s soul was in the state of the dead, in Paradise. Why?

First, the Hebrew word translated “hell” in Psalm 16:10, Sheol, can refer to the state of the dead in general.[12]

It can refer to the place of the wicked dead: “The wicked shall be turned into hell [Sheol], and all the nations that forget God” (Psalm 9:17). But it can also refer to the place where the righteous dead go.

For example, the patriarch Jacob said he would go to Sheol, where his son Joseph was:

For I will go down into the grave [Sheol] unto my son …then shall ye bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave [Sheol]. … ye shall bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave [Sheol]. … he will die: and thy servants shall bring down the gray hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to the grave [Sheol]. (Genesis 37:35; 42:38; 44:29, 31)

But Hebrews 11 is very clear that the patriarchs, like Jacob, “looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God … a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.” (Hebrews 11:10, 16). The patriarchs were in Paradise, enjoying the presence of God, when they were in Sheol.

Similarly, godly king Hezekiah said: “I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of the grave [Sheol]: I am deprived of the residue of my years” (Isaiah 38:10).

Godly king David said: “O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave [Sheol]: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit” (Psalm 30:3). The fact is that king David, Hezekiah, Jacob, and Joseph were not getting tormented in hell. They were in Paradise.

If the word Sheol can refer to the state of the dead in general, so that it can refer both to the place where the lost are tormented and the Paradise of the righteous, what is the difference?

For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell [Sheol], and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. (Deuteronomy 32:22)

For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell [Sheol]. (Psalm 86:13)

The wicked dead are in the “lowest hell,” the place of torment within the state of the dead (Sheol). The righteous dead, in God’s mercy, have been delivered from the “lowest hell,” but are in the state of the dead that is not the “lowest” Sheol.

So Psalm 16:10 is a promise that Christ’s soul will not be left in the state of the dead, Sheol. Christ was with the righteous dead in Paradise, with Jacob and Joseph and David and Hezekiah, and the believing thief. He was not tormented with sinners after His death! The Hebrew word Sheol gives no support to the position of Mr. McMurtry.

The Greek translation of the Old Testament uses the word Hades where the Hebrew has Sheol.[13]

That is the word that appears in Acts 2:27 and 2:31. Christ’s soul was in the part of Sheol or Hades where the righteous dead were. He was not tormented, but was with the redeemed thief and all the saved of the Old Testament. The word “Hades” is translated as “grave” in 1 Corinthians 15:55. Acts 2:27 could equally well have been translated, “thou wilt not leave my soul in the grave, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” This is why the parallel passage to Acts 2, Acts 13:34, equates Christ being in Hades with being in the place of the “dead.”

There is nothing in the Hebrew of Psalm 16:10 or the Greek of Acts 2 that states that Christ was tormented in hell. No, the Lord went to the place where the righteous dead were, Sheol/Hades, but He was not in the “lowest hell,” the place of torment, with the wicked. The Hebrew Old Testament and Greek New Testament contradict the position of Mr. McMurtry.

Someone could respond: “But I am King James Only. The English of the King James Version says ‘hell’ in Psalm 16:10 and Acts 2, so I don’t care what the Hebrew and Greek say. [I do not say that Pastor McMurtry would necessarily phrase things in this way.] Christ had to be tormented in hell!” This, however, is a grave misunderstanding of the meaning of the English word hell in 1611 and for centuries afterwards.

Webster’s 1828 English Dictionary points out that the English word hell is derived from “a deep place” or from the old Saxon word for “cover.” Definitions given include: “1. The place or state of punishment for the wicked after death. Matt. 10. Luke 12.”^[14] But Webster’s 1828 Dictionary also defines hell as: “2. The place of the dead, or of souls after death; the lower regions, or the grave; called in Hebrew, sheol, and by the Greeks, hades. Ps. 16. Jon. 2.”^[15] Just like the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek word Hades, the English word hell in 1611 could refer to both the place where the wicked are tormented and to the state of death, the grave, where the righteous dead were, and where Christ was after His death! Note that Psalm 16, where Christ is predicted to not have His soul in “hell,” is specifically defined by Webster’s 1828 Dictionary as “the grave,” not the place of torment!

The first definition in the unabridged Oxford English Dictionary for the English word hell is:[16] “The dwelling place of the dead; the abode of departed spirits … the grave; Hades … In the Christian tradition.” Note the following examples:

1382 Wycliff Bible, where Jacob says that he would go to the grave, that is “hell,” when he died:

Ȝe schall lede doun myn hore heerez with soru to helle [Latin ad inferos].

Bible (Wycliffite, early version) (Bodleian MS. 959) (1959) Genesis xlii. 38

1529, Thomas More:

Descendit ad inferna: that ys to say he descended downe byneth in to the lowe placys. In stede of whyche low placys the englyshe tong hath euer vsed thys worde hell.
T. More, Supplycacyon of Soulys ii. f. xxviiiv

1535 Coverdale Bible:

His soule was not left in hell [1881 R. V. Hades]. Bible (Coverdale) Acts ii. D

1649, Bishop Taylor:

Our Lord descended into hell … that is into the state of separation and common receptacle of spirits. Bishop J. Taylor, Great Exemplar iii. §16. 170

1748, Isaac Watts:

I will explain the word hell to signify the state of the dead, or the separate state of souls … and … that the soul of Christ existed three days in the state of separation from his body, or was in the invisible world.
I. Watts, Improvem. Mind ii. v, in Collected Works (1753) vol. V. 341

In fact, we can even see the word “hell” used for the “grave” in writings of the KJV translators themselves.[17]

One of the KJV translators, Lancelot Andrewes, wrote:

Christ … rising from the dead … we may use His words in applying it, “Thou hast not left My soul in hell,” “but brought Me back from the deep of the earth again.”^[18]

“The heart of the earth,” with Justin Martyr, Chrysostom, Augustine, I take for the grave … neither His soul should be left in hell, nor His flesh suffered to see corruption. For Christ had His Psalm too, as well as Jonas. David composed it for Him long before—the sixteenth Psalm, the Psalm of the Resurrection. And so the evening and the morning were Christ’s second day, Easter-eve.^[19]

Thus, there is nothing in the Hebrew word Sheol, the Greek word Hades, or the English word hell that prove that Christ was tormented after His death. None of these words supports the position of Mr. McMurtry. No, Christ completed the work of salvation on the cross. 1 Peter 3:18 teaches that He “once suffered” when He was “put to death in the flesh.” He completed all the necessary suffering on the cross. There it was finished. Then He committed His spirit to the Father and went to Paradise, with the redeemed thief, Jacob, Joseph, David, Hezekiah, and the other righteous dead.

[1] General Baptist Orthodox Creed of 1678, Article 28, declares:

^[2] W. J. McGlothlin, Baptist Confessions of Faith (Philadelphia: American Baptist Publication Society, 1911), 153–154.

[3] I believe in God the Father Almighty; Maker of heaven and earth.

I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy Catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the flesh; and the life everlasting. Amen. (Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom, with a History and Critical Notes: The Greek and Latin Creeds, with Translations, vol. 2 [New York: Harper & Brothers, 1890], 45)

^[4] Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom, with a History and Critical Notes: The Greek and Latin Creeds, with Translations, vol. 2 (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1890), 45.

[5] The “descended into hell” clause in the Catholic version of the Apostles Creed:

Nowhere before the middle of the 4^th century A. D.

Appears first in confessions by Arians who denied the Deity of Jesus Christ (4^th Formula of Sirmium, A. D. 359)

Never accepted in the official creeds of the East

Began to be accepted in the West in the 6^th century A. D.

Received Text of the Apostles’ Creed including the phrase first appears in 8^th cent. A. D.

Interpreted as a reference to Christ’s burial, not His going to the place the lost are tormented

Earliest commentary on the Creed reads: “In the creed of the Roman church, we should notice, the words DESCENDED TO HELL are not added, nor for that matter does the clause feature in the Eastern churches. Its meaning, however, appears to be precisely the same as that contained in the affirmation BURIED.” (Rufinus, Rufinus: A Commentary on the Apostles’ Creed, ed. Johannes Quasten and Joseph C. Plumpe, trans. J. N. D. Kelly, vol. 20, Ancient Christian Writers [Mahwah, NJ: Newman Press, 1955], 52.)

^[6] Rufinus, Rufinus: A Commentary on the Apostles’ Creed, ed. Johannes Quasten and Joseph C. Plumpe, trans. J. N. D. Kelly, vol. 20, Ancient Christian Writers (Mahwah, NJ: Newman Press, 1955), 77.

^[7] J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Creeds, Third Edition. (London: Continuum, 2006), 400; Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom, with a History and Critical Notes: The History of Creeds, vol. 1 (New York: Harper & Brothers, Publishers, 1878), 19–20.

^[8] Rufinus, Rufinus: A Commentary on the Apostles’ Creed, ed. Johannes Quasten and Joseph C. Plumpe, trans. J. N. D. Kelly, vol. 20, Ancient Christian Writers (Mahwah, NJ: Newman Press, 1955), 52.

[9] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luke 23:43).

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. (Luke 23:46)

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. (John 19:30)

Christ “hath once suffered for sins” when “put to death in the flesh” on the cross (1 Pet 3:18)-not afterwards when (allegedly) in torment in hell!

[10] It is not possible to reduce the fact that Christ committed His human spirit, that immaterial portion of His true and complete human nature, to the Father, into a mere statement about breath, as if this verse merely stated that Christ breathed His last. While the word spirit, pneuma, is used in a significant variety of ways in the narrative portions of the New Testament, in not one of the 174 uses of pneuma in the four Gospels and in Acts does it refer merely to human breath (Matthew 1:18, 20; 3:11, 16; 4:1; 5:3; 8:16; 10:1, 20; 12:18, 28, 31-32, 43, 45; 22:43; 26:41; 27:50; 28:19; Mark 1:8, 10, 12, 23, 26-27; 2:8; 3:11, 29-30; 5:2, 8, 13; 6:7; 7:25; 8:12; 9:17, 20, 25; 12:36; 13:11; 14:38; Luke 1:15, 17, 35, 41, 47, 67, 80; 2:25-27, 40; 3:16, 22; 4:1, 14, 18, 33, 36; 6:18; 7:21; 8:2, 29, 55; 9:39, 42, 55; 10:20-21; 11:13, 24, 26; 12:10, 12; 13:11; 23:46; 24:37, 39; John 1:32-33; 3:5-6, 8, 34; 4:23-24; 6:63; 7:39; 11:33; 13:21; 14:17, 26; 15:26; 16:13; 19:30; 20:22; Acts 1:2, 5, 8, 16; 2:4, 17-18, 33, 38; 4:8, 31; 5:3, 9, 16, 32; 6:3, 5, 10; 7:51, 55, 59; 8:7, 15, 17-19, 29, 39; 9:17, 31; 10:19, 38, 44-45, 47; 11:12, 15-16, 24, 28; 13:2, 4, 9, 52; 15:8, 28; 16:6-7, 16, 18; 17:16; 18:5, 25; 19:2, 6, 12-13, 15-16, 21; 20:22-23, 28; 21:4, 11; 23:8-9; 28:25). Indeed, it is questionable if the word pneuma is ever used for merely human breath in the New Testament anywhere. On the other hand, numbers of texts clearly and unambiguously refer to the immaterial portion of a human being, his human spirit. Luke 23:46 is not a mere statement about the Lord Jesus’s breath. It is an unambiguous affirmation that the immaterial portion of Christ’s human nature would be in Paradise with God the Father and with the believing thief’s human spirit (Luke 23:43, 46).

[11] For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Psalm 16:10)

[12] Hebrew “Sheol”: State of the dead—Paradise for the righteous, torment for the unrighteous

Wicked tormented in Sheol:

The wicked shall be turned into hell [Sheol], and all the nations that forget God. (Psalm 9:17)

Righteous are in Sheol, but not in torment:

Jacob and Joseph, who “looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God … a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.” (Hebrews 11:10, 16)

King Hezekiah:

I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of the grave [Sheol]: I am deprived of the residue of my years. (Isaiah 38:10)

King David:

O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave [Sheol]: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit. (Psalm 30:3)

David, Hezekiah, Jacob, and Joseph were not getting tormented in hell. They were in Paradise.

What is the difference?

For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell [Sheol]. (Psalm 86:13)

[13] Hebrew Sheol = Greek Hades:

Hades translated “grave” in 1 Corinthians 15:55, KJV.

Christ’s soul went to Hades in Acts 2:27, 31.

Christ went to the “dead” (Acts 13:34) when He went to Hades.

^[14] Noah Webster, Noah Webster’s First Edition of An American Dictionary of the English Language. (Anaheim, CA: Foundation for American Christian Education, 2006), entry “hell.”

^[15] Noah Webster, Noah Webster’s First Edition of An American Dictionary of the English Language. (Anaheim, CA: Foundation for American Christian Education, 2006), entry “hell.”

[16] Oxford English Dictionary, def. of “hell,” #1:

The dwelling place of the dead; the abode of departed spirits … the grave; Hades … In the Christian tradition.

Examples:

1382 Wycliff Bible, where Jacob says that he would go to the grave, that is “hell,” when he died:

Ȝe schall lede doun myn hore heerez with soru to helle [Latin ad inferos].

Bible (Wycliffite, early version) (Bodleian MS. 959) (1959) Genesis xlii. 38

1529, Thomas More:

1535 Coverdale Bible:

His soule was not left in hell [1881 R. V. Hades]. Bible (Coverdale) Acts ii. D

1649, Bishop Taylor:

Our Lord descended into hell … that is into the state of separation and common receptacle of spirits. Bishop J. Taylor, Great Exemplar iii. §16. 170

1748, Isaac Watts:

[17] KJV translator Lancelot Andrewes:

Christ … rising from the dead … we may use His words in applying it, “Thou hast not left My soul in hell,” “but brought Me back from the deep of the earth again.” (Lancelot Andrewes, Ninety-Six Sermons, vol. 3 [Oxford: John Henry Parker, 1841], 61–62.)

^[18] Lancelot Andrewes, Ninety-Six Sermons, vol. 3 (Oxford: John Henry Parker, 1841), 61–62.

^[19] Lancelot Andrewes, Ninety-Six Sermons, vol. 2 (Oxford: John Henry Parker, 1841), 397.

Tommy McMurtry & Thomas Ross Salvation Debate, part 1 of 2

More Resources on Soteriology: The Biblical Doctrine of Salvation

More Resources on Ecclesiology: The Doctrine of the Church

Tommy McMurtry / Thomas Ross: Salvation, Sinners Prayer, Hell Debate 2 of 2

Tommy McMurtry / Thomas Ross: Salvation, Sinners Prayer, Hell Debate 2 of 2

Tommy McMurtry / Thomas Ross Discussion Part 2:

Sinner’s Prayer, Did Christ Have to Suffer in Hell? (No!) & the Great Commission

Watch part 1 of the Tommy McMurtry & Thomas Ross Salvation Debate here

Notes for Tommy McMurtry & Thomas Ross

Discussion / Debate, part 5

Notes for Tommy McMurtry & Thomas Ross

Discussion / Debate, part 6

About the Author: Thomas Ross

Tommy McMurtry / Thomas Ross: Salvation, Sinners Prayer, Hell Debate 2 of 2

Tommy McMurtry / Thomas Ross: Salvation, Sinners Prayer, Hell Debate 2 of 2

Tommy McMurtry / Thomas Ross Discussion Part 2:

Sinner’s Prayer, Did Christ Have to Suffer in Hell? (No!) & the Great Commission

Watch part 1 of the Tommy McMurtry & Thomas Ross Salvation Debate here

Notes for Tommy McMurtry & Thomas Ross

Discussion / Debate, part 5

Notes for Tommy McMurtry & Thomas Ross

Discussion / Debate, part 6

Share This Article, Choose Your Platform!

About the Author: Thomas Ross

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